rspp.myfastforum.org

CommonSense · Joined: 29 May 2009 Posts: 3

Hello,

I would like to respectfully challenge the mission of RSPP, and the ethicality of culling grey squirrels (or any other animal).

Whilst it is true that the grey squirrel is invading and "out-competing" the red squirrel in many locations, I believe people fail to respect that "species invasion" is a normal and natural part of biology. In fact, all species everywhere came from (invaded) from somewhere else, including we humans. Whether this is an insect stowing away in a bird's feathers to arrive on a new shore, or a lizard clinging onto a coconut in the Pacific to arrive on a new island. The grey squirrel is only different in one respect - and that is that the transfer vector was humankind.

Nevertheless, the grey squirrel is now established and thriving in Europe. For individual grey squirrels (who have been here for generations and now know not nor care of their American ancestry!), I believe it is every bit as unethical to kill them as it would be to kill any other animal (incl. red squirrel individuals).

Much as Celt invaded to push aside Pict, who was in turn pushed aside by Romans, in turn by Anglo-Saxons, ......

It is a fact of biology, a NATURAL process, and we should not resist it.

a19geo · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 10 Location: Hartlepool

Yes species naturally eat others etc, & it's not nice to kill animals.
BUT, if the tree rats lived along side our Reds, & just gave them a hard time I would agree with you. Take a look at the effect of pox, killing the Reds in 2 weeks, not a fair fight for survival. The reds are being wiped out, Extincted.
Give the Reds all the help we can, don't just cull, Eliminate.
The Nazis tried to invade Britain & we killed thousands of humans to preserve what we had, was that unethical ?

hörnchen · Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: Re: cull

hi,

rear, naturally the killing is not ethical of a grey solution, as ecological. I see being protected here only one chance if the Habitat for the red squirrel and for the grey as inaccessible as possible be made. with the killing of the grey it does not become better! the individual animal white not which it does there. here humans acted out of ignorance. that grey crescents become probably not loose we again. for that the red must we survive now more together stand. as animal welfare activist I lean that kill any animals as more ecological and ethical view.
DIRK.

CommonSense · Joined: 29 May 2009 Posts: 3

Also, I think it is worth considering the wooly notion of what is "native". The protection of the red squirrel is usually justified on the basis of it being a "native" species. But, "native" is a relative, time-based concept. The red itself possibly (no, certainly) "invaded" at one time in the past from other parts of Europe, itself out-competing a predecessor here from the same genus, or an earlier ancestor.

So, I would ask people here this question: "If" the red squirrel were to become extinct on Britain, it would be by default be replaced by the grey as our new "native" squirrel. Would you lot then suddenly switch to protect the grey from any future invading "green" squirrels (or whatever)? Or do you just hate the grey?

Is this protection of the reds about ecology, or about sentimentalism? If it is the latter, then culling (genocide) of the greys is highly unethical. If it is the former, then I am arguing that the case is dubious.

OuzelBird · Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 5

I must confess to getting annoyed with people who argue for grey squirrels from a "holier than thou" perspective and rely upon semantics to support their spurious arguments. Nativeness is only a wooly notion to those who wish to discredit the efforts of many concerned people to prevent the extinction in Britain of a much-loved native species. To most people, conservationists and scientists alike, our red squirrels are native because they evolved here over thousands of years alongside our other native species, therefore they are able to co-exist. Not so in the case of grey squirrels which were brought here from a distant continent thousands of miles away. They could never have done this on their own for they could not have survived the Arctic, it needed the interference of a species that has evolved to such an extent that it is capable of upsetting the balance of nature. Again, this is something generally accepted by scientists and conservationists alike, and also by other reasonable people. To suggest that man's interference is natural is to agree that the destruction of the planet by nuclear warfare would also be natural!

If it is wrong to cull grey squirrels, and I do wish there was another way to save the red, it is equally wrong to cull brown rats (another invasive alien species!), American mink, signal crayfish, red-eared terrapins, topmouth gudgeon, Himalayan balsam, Japanese knotweed etc., etc.
To denounce the culling of grey squirrels whilst having no opinion on other, less cute alien invaders is sheer hypocrisy based on prejudice. Did you complain at the extermination of the coypu from the Norfolk Broads in 1990? I suspect not!

You claim that the red squirrel "certainly invaded from other parts of Europe" and thus you display a complete ignorance of basic evolution. You fail to see the difference between a species expanding it's range naturally by a gradual spread into adjoining areas and a species being introduced from another continent thousands of miles away where the flora and fauna consists of different species.

I suspect that there are many facts about grey squirrels which you have not bothered to acquaint yourself with. For instance, did you know that grey squirrels can live at 6 or 7 times the density of reds and thus, allowing for their greater bodyweight, the overall impact of greys on our environment is likely to be ten times greater than that of reds? Before these more enlightened times reds were culled by the thousand because of the damage they caused to forestry. So it would seem that the ten times greater damage caused by greys ought to be reason enough for a nationwide cull! The predation of birds' nests is also likely to be ten times greater assuming that both species are equally partial to the occasional egg or chick, which appears to be the case. It seems likely also that in these more environmentally enlightened times the efforts of conservationists to save and restore the hazel dormouse to parts of it's former range are being hampered by grey squirrels who are devouring the dormice's food supply.

I could go on and on. Fifteen or so years ago, before we were fully aware of the parapox virus and its relationship to grey and red squirrels I would have doubted the wisdom or necessity of a grey cull. But in the light of current knowledge, and I have read everything I can lay my hands on for many years now, I am of the firm opinion that anyone who does not wish to see the red squirrel extinct in Britain and Europe (look what has happened to the supposedly safe red squirrels of Formby Point) and who takes the trouble to research the facts will wholeheartedly support a nationwide cull, no matter how distasteful! But firstly prejudices must be cast aside, and that may mean tolerating brown rats and other invasive alien introductions.

Finally I would suggest that you change your "handle" to a more appropriate one!

CommonSense · Joined: 29 May 2009 Posts: 3

Hey "Ouzelbird", check this out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8108297.stm

Ain't that just the cutest thing you ever did saw?

OuzelBird · Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 5

So???

I bet he wishes it was a red squirrel!

supergenius · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 1

That's not cute. It's a bloody rat with a fluffy tail. Just because it is small and fluffy doesn't make it cute. Makes me want to throw up more like. Dirty filthy animal running around over food preparation surfaces etc.

Just like having a cat in the house - it tramples in and out of its litter tray and the next it's sitting wiping its feet on your pillow!!

Yuck - shoot them all!!

a19geo · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 10 Location: Hartlepool

I totally agree with Ouzelbird, very well put.
Some sympathy with commonsense's plee, but its wrong. (Charles for King).
Like Ouz says, signal crayfish are a similar case. Getting rid of them would not upset many people, so protecting the killer Grays cos they look "cuter !" is sentimental.
Supergenius, you get my vote, but don't put the cats out of the house, they are the biggest single killer of wildlife. (& they crap in my garden) "Zey are on ze list".

Flanker · Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 11 Location: WA, USA

Hands off the adorable gray squirrels, you despicable barbarians in Great Britain! The real reason you barbarians kill those beautiful-in-and-out animals is your animosity toward the American people. You barbarians consider those valuable animals the AMERICAN INVASION! The gray squirrels DO NOT eradicate the super-adorable red squirrels. Red squirrels simply run away from the grays, as the latter are stronger genetically. The way to preserve the reds is to focus ON THEM, not to focus murderously on the grays. The number one killer of the squirrels are the bandit-drivers on the streets and roads. Conduct an educational campaign for them to stop killing squirrels. Put up “STOP for squirrels” road signs. Exterminate natural killers of squirrels – raccoons, hawks, falcons, eagles, etc. Protect and feed everywhere the adorable squirrels; ALL OF THEM!

You are lucky squirrel-murdering bandits I don’t live in your decadent country. If I caught you killing squirrels, it would be YOU who would be hunted by me, after being given one warning to stop.